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Monday, January 25, 2010

More Reflections

In my previous post there were some interesting comments which I would like to address.

One of the arguments in favor of the current flimsy state of industrial ships is the following:

"Just fly with combat pilots running defense".

Let's sit back and look at the stupidity of this statement, shall we? Think about it, if concord can't stop destroyers from suicide killing an industrial in a 1.0 system, how the hell does anyone expect a normal player to defend the things? You can defend a POS (they last long enough to get a response fleet together and if the timing is off you know when it comes out of re-enforced). unless you're willing to loose the ships to something much cheaper they can't realistically be used as bait ships either. Case in point, recently one of my newbie pilots tried to get a war target to engage by using an escorted mining ship. Sure they got the frigate, but the barge died before the frigate did. As I would have predicted prior to the rather idiotic attempt (ok it did get him out play).

That pretty much establishes the parameters of defensibility of the industrial ship class (T1 haulers and barge/exhumers). The only real "defense" is advanced warning and evasion. This happens in the defense channels of 0.0 alliances and in the wormhole space quite well. True NBSI policy helps in this regard. The problem is that high sec is too crowded and the gankers rely on anonymity and lack of any true ability to retaliate on the side of the carebears as a defensive shield to continue their griefing.

The biggest problem is that all industrial ships are too easy to kill. They don't last long enough against a single ship let alone a small squadron to be able to be defended directly at all. It's only in 0.0 space that the tools to actually defend the space around the industrial ships allow their operations proceed in defensive environment. Early warning and switch to combat ships being the letter of the day.

As for "employing" the combat pilots to help in defense. The real problem here is a question of income. The truth is that mining and hauling are not great isk per hour. It's effectively on par with mission running. The problem here is you're asking a combat pilot to stop making isk to defend you and even if you split your proceeds with him he's much better off simply running missions. It would only be if it was possible to earn 3-4 times as much mining as running missions would it be worth while employing combat pilots to help defend a mining op. And THAT is only IF the combat pilots could conceivable "defend" the op. The truth is they can't really "defend" anything in high sec. They can "avenge" but not "defend". In 0.0 the combat pilots are defending their space, and it doesn't matter if the source of income is rats or sleepers or rocks. Every one helps the defense and everyone works on their preferred source of income.

It still remains though that as currently implemented, industrial ship defenses are so minimal that the only true defense is an area defense which you can't establish in high sec or in low sec.

So far only the T2 haulers and the Orca - although killable - are defensible and or slippery enough to actually be worth escorting. The rest are "well you need to risk getting blown away to move x cubic meters of stuff in any convenient fashion". We do it because there are few other options, but like it? Nope can't say I like it at all. Getting killed in a ship that can fight back? not so bad. Getting killed in a ship that's intentionally defenseless? Not so fun.


phantam said...

Agreed 110% with everything you said abought highsec, i think a new type of miner needs to be created, with a really big tank, im talking able to take a big licking and still keep ticking, for this tank however, it would drop to 2 mining lasers instead of the hulks 3, and would be much more costly than a hulk say an easy 75%-100% increase for it....

Basically it would be a Retriever, with the tank and possibly warp strength bonus of a transport ship (not the blockade runner the other one), that way its got a big tank, ability to escape suiciders, and still can mine during things like hulkageddon etc...

But thats just my stupid idea.

One thing i'd love to see is the ability to designate shareing of the can, to prevent can flipprs, so u can hire a group of pvp pilots to "share the can with" and if the can gets flipped, they get red'd to the flipper as well not just the corp of the original pilot... Would make can flipping a much more dangerous ordeal.

radsaq said...

Again, if you're someplace alone and need defensibility, fly a combat shit with mining lasers on it.

Also, because I honestly don't know, is the 20,000 EHP tank I normally use on a Hulk not enough to keep away a high sec gank squad?

(I will leave alone the issue of whether high sec ganking should be so easy/accessible to pilots)

Cozmik R5 said...

What a lot of people have trouble understanding in EVE is this:

No matter if you're in Hi-sec, Low-sec or Null-sec, space is a dangerous place.

Mara Rinn said...

20k EHP on a Hulk just means the gankers bring more c
destroyers. It might make you less attractive than the next guy in the belt, but if you're using expensive modules you're making yourself much more attractive.

If you boost the EHP of industrials the gankers will just bring more ships.

They're after the tears, with profit as a secondary motive. Easy fight + tears is a griefer's wet dream. Be careful where you mine - my favourite places to mine are in multiple-room mission deadspaces where gankers can be seen coming.

An easier way to boost mining safety is to move all belts to exploration sites, with at least one gate between warp-in and the juicy belt.

Or just mine in mission spaces in highly populated systems.

enlightened0ne said...

If only high-sec mining was anywhere near as profitable as that other staple of high-sec earning; L4 missions. Mining takes longer to train for, is riskier, pretty much requires two accounts, and it results in much less isk than L4 mission running. The only reason it seems to still be a popular profession is that it is so obvious even to the newest players. Plus, the skills for mining aren't useful for anything else, but mission running skills help for pvp, and increased standings help for all sorts of aspects of the game.

I agree that there should be a method of defending industrial ships in high sec if people are together in a group, but I don't think that the answer is a ship that can survive on its own. Defending industrials in high sec should require other players, but you are right in saying that requires a greater profit. Maybe hulks don't really belong in high-sec space, or maybe we just need the orca to be able to deploy a small pos-like shield for a short time... long enough for combat pilots to do something about the gankers, but not long enough to be able to save the miners without the need for defence.

phantam said...

The reason highsec mining and all mining is still popular, is because it tends to be decompressing, PVP and mission running tends to take some attention, ice mining and mining in general tends to allow one to relax, chat with corp mates and still earn a "passive" income.

enlightened0ne said...

True, although mission-running (particularly for gallente players) can involve just warping in, releasing drones, and occasionally just returning them when a new wave is triggered. Not the fastest way of doing it, but certainly more profitable than mining. (Not that I do either very much... plexing in nullsec is just as afk but is more profitable than either)

phantam said...

my corp just moved down to null, or shall i say "in the process" as we havent moved any of the bulk of our ships or members down yet lol, but hopes for big ISK are looking hopeful, even ratting is more fun in nullsec LOL, i still need to get the hang of the politics

Chi Nwi said...

I wrote my longest posting ever on here. Google crashed and lost it.

Taking that all out of it I agree with Phantam.
"One thing i'd love to see is the ability to designate shareing of the can, to prevent can flipprs, so u can hire a group of pvp pilots to "share the can with" and if the can gets flipped, they get red'd to the flipper as well not just the corp of the original pilot... Would make can flipping a much more dangerous ordeal."

However I would modify it to this. You steal, your flashy across the alliance. You STAY flashy until your PODDED.

Man, all of the logistics, pontificating and a great post. My best post ever.. lost.

damn google.

permalost said...

Just a quick question. If you hire a group of PvP pilots for security I'm assuming they would be the same corp. Can you have them drop a can and use that? Then if someone steals he becomes flashy to your security so they can deal with him?

name said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
name said...

I'm starting to think about ewar in order to protect indy against single enemy but of course i would prefer adding HP to ships too. increasing of fight time it is a crucial problem - even if victim is a bc it is difficult to bring helping fleet even from nearest system.

phantam said...

I HAVE AN IDEA, if your locked by someone (neutral person) that should authorize your corps usage of EWAR on that person without concord bombinb u to hell :)

That way a soon as someone locks a hauler or mack or hulk, the ewar support ship can lock and ewar the shit out of the scannership/evil ship